is going to debunk that. and i know every expert i've talked to in the fbi, and in the cia, glenn carl for example told me none of this torture worked. none of this enhanced interrogation worked. it did not, as cheney has alleged, lead to the killing of bin laden. it was counterproductive. it was damaging to our reputation and he's still lying about it. >> we haven't heard the last of that, have we? >> no, we haven't. >> how aggressive do you think lawmakers ought to be with that report? >> i think it ought to be at least portions of it, just like i thought the 9/11 commission portions of it should be made public. if we're not going to hold people accountable, we should at least let the american people know what was done in their name that basically constituted war crimes. >> getting back to cheney for a moment, his vision of international intervention, do you think that that really illustrates where the republican party is? >> i think the republican party is lost right now. wandering in the desert, as it were.